Author Topic: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)  (Read 263 times)

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2019, 10:38:PM »
A few more things on further reflection (and I am yet to see it a second time, so these might be answered when that happens or become even bigger talking points).

With the time jump forward to 5 years (assuming its 2023), how does the next film in the MCU series (purportedly, the last film in Phase 3), Siderman: Far From Home, play out? Is it set 5 years in the future? Looking at the trailers this seems to not be so obvious but who knows...

Also, Loki just escapes in the past when the Avengers originally caught him, which is different than what happened in the original film. Of course, Loki has escaped many times, he has a tendency for doing this, but the fact that he was killed BEFORE Thanos snapped his fingers at the end of Infinity War meant that there was no way he was coming back in the existing universe. However now that he has escaped in an alternate dimension, perhaps this might change (I really like his character and want him to make an appearance!).

The time-travel thing isn't particularly well thought out, explained or closed.
- We are explicitly told that they have Pym Particles only for one round trip per person. This is a part of the plot point too when Cap and Iron Man have to travel further back to get the Space Stone from an Army base. Yet... How do Thanos' ship and evil Nebula time-travel back to the present in two separate journeys? Evil Nebula gives the Pym particles to Thanos. So she has the space-time GPS but no Pym particles to come back. Thanos has the Pym particles but no Space-Tume GPS (and how do you put it on a whole ship anyway? But let's ignore that).
- Past Gomorra is now in the present. So that the GotG franchise can continue. But now that the post-finale Avengers have unlimited Pym particles and a Time Machine (that's how the Cap finally travels, right?), then why not just go into any past and bring back Widow and Vision and a Tony Stark too? 🤷‍♂
- Did all of Spidey's school friends and his aunt get snapped? If not, there'll be a 5-year gap between them, and some of those kids would've graduated school.

The movie does a pretty good job of the "Best of hits" that Fizz mentions. But I don't think it stands up to scrutiny. It's massively fun and quite the emotional ride. But once the euphoria around it dies down, it won't have the kind of longevity that Avengers 1 or Infinity War has.

I agree with all of this (and have at least one more point to make, so bear with me here).

Watching it again a second time today, I realised the exact same thing in trying to figure out how Thanos travelled back. My thoughts were the same as yours but I think things played out slightly different. I don't think Nebula gave the Pym particles to Thanos, though she did show it to him. She had absolutely no way to come back without them and needed to be on the inside to do the bigger damage. So she must have used it, like everyone was supposed to, to get back to where she originally came from. Now, once she is back, you see her tampering with the platform used for travelling using the Pym particles, and there is a monitor reading about incoming vessel into this time zone/coordinates (or something...), so she must have done some playing around to get Thanos (and basically his entire planet in miniature form just like her and Rhodey took Rocket Racoon's ship to the past) to present day Earth. But, given the films own internal logic, to travel anywhere in time you need to know how to trigger the usage of a Pym particle and there is no aspect of it that can be used to pull people from elsewhere in time, so really, it's frustrating how this happened!
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2019, 10:44:PM »
Here's the part that I REALLY don't get.

In travelling back to conduct their heist, they go back to places known to them (or others in the team). That's basically the essence of how they know where and when to go back to. It's a sort of collective memory that they rely on. This works and makes sense, even for us as audiences since we get to relive in many ways great moments from previous films. However, the decision to go back to the 70's was a bit of a head-scratcher. How exactly did Stark know about this, especially when he wasn't even born. When having this conversation with Cap, he says something that hints at (to me at least) a precursor to a scene in said past that might reveal to us how Stark knew that he had to go back to that specific and precise date (which he basically tells Cap to punch in their device), but having seen this scene twice now, rather carefully, I have no idea how he might have known, except for pure, dumb luck!
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2019, 10:52:PM »
Forgive me, for I shall keep ranting.

Another point that bothered me, what was up with all the fuss made about Captain Marvel and her potential role in Endgame before the films release and how she seemed to be underutilised in the film itself. She made a few brief appearances, cropped her hair, looked pissed off, came and blew shit up when least expected, but talk about one-dimensional. I mean, it was convenient for her to disappear (saying something along the lines of, I have lots of other places to be so you won't see me for awhile) and then returning in the thick of battle to change the tides. Between that, she was basically just missing, which makes me question why Captain Marvel, was positioned the way it was in Phase 3, as if it were being setup as some big key to the puzzling question of how would the heroes come back. I was honestly underwhelemed by her inclusion (and lack of being involved).
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2019, 11:14:PM »
And just so that this doesn't turn into some sort of a bitching session, now for the goods:

 - How fucking awesome was Cap's moment lifting Mjolnir. In a film full of highlights, from a series full of highlights, this was perhaps right up there at the top. Hair rasing, except, it wasn't the best single moment. That title would go to...
 - Cap, holding his breath, letting the drums roll over, then shouting "Avengers Assemble...". I've probably waited 4 Avenger films and many years to hear this. I expected this to happen at some point in the first film and when it didn't, I just thought the MCU would never use that line. But as a battle cry, in the comics, its essential, necessary, seminal. And when it happened in the film, I, as a person who doesn't usually applaud, doesn't shout, doesn't jump in his seat, let out the most audible gasp ever. It was....incredible!
 - I absolutely loved the films first 30 minutes. It was indescribable. I mean...the unorthodox opening, the sombre tone, finding Tony, finding Thanos, Thor going for the head, the entire scene going out of focus (I seriously thought it was a dream sequence, the way it was shot) and then....black....FIVE    YEARS    LATER. Bold, very bold.

Lots of other moments, but those are probably the standouts that come to mind.
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2019, 12:04:PM »
...so she must have done some playing around to get Thanos (and basically his entire planet in miniature form just like her and Rhodey took Rocket Racoon's ship to the past) to present day Earth.

Makes you wonder, why didn't the Avengers save on some Pym Particles by putting Black Widow+Hawkeye+War Machine+Nebula into Rocket Racoon's ship, minituarize it and send it to their past destination.

This movie really doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and we're just using the movie's own internal logic.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2019, 12:04:PM »
However, the decision to go back to the 70's was a bit of a head-scratcher. How exactly did Stark know about this, especially when he wasn't even born.

"I know because I know." And then, "Do you trust me?"

Yeah, how does he know? I assumed it's a detail I don't remember. But even granted that, how convenient to have the stone, Howard Stark, Hank Pym and Peggy Carter in the same place at the same time! And have the Starks bump into each other and Cap into Carter's cabin.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2019, 12:05:PM »
Another point that bothered me, what was up with all the fuss made about Captain Marvel and her potential role in Endgame before the films release and how she seemed to be underutilised in the film itself.

Her superpower is to fly through ships! ;)

She was being marketed and positioned as the person to take over from RDJ as the face of the franchise. It's been a mis-hit. Not only is her portrayal bland and the character totally random, even Brie Larson hasn't done herself any favours by her off-screen statements and persona (To paraphrase: "Why is anyone surprised Captain Marvel made $1B? Ok, I did it."). This is jarring when for the last 10 years RDJ has been charming everyone's socks off successfully (regardless one likes him or not!). The contrast is even more evident after Endgame, where RDJ's performance was arguably the best of the entire cast.

I wouldn't be surprised if Chadwick Boseman or Benedict Cumberbatch start being more centrally figured as representing the MCU henceforth (they're both quite popular and humbe off-screen). Or maybe someone else they cast for their X-Men iteration.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2019, 12:12:PM »
You know, going through the above few posts back, it really seems like we hated the movie. But I really liked it!

That adage of how flaws are excusable based on how good the movie is... I don't think this is a particularly good movie, as much as subjectively how much we like it because of the "Best of Hits" (such an apt description by Fizz) and some truly awesome moments. Purely as a culmination of the ten+ years of investment in the MCU, this was pretty epic.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2019, 09:47:PM »
You know, going through the above few posts back, it really seems like we hated the movie. But I really liked it!

That adage of how flaws are excusable based on how good the movie is... I don't think this is a particularly good movie, as much as subjectively how much we like it because of the "Best of Hits" (such an apt description by Fizz) and some truly awesome moments. Purely as a culmination of the ten+ years of investment in the MCU, this was pretty epic.

I agree, it makes it sound like such a downer, but this is why I put a post of all the best things about it, and I am not even done with how good Black Widow and Hawkeye's jostling for who would sacrifice their life was. What a great scene....it was clear (to me) that Barton dying would do the trick because you know that Natasha has feelings for him and cares immensely for his well-being (also evident throughout this film), but her dying/sacrificing herself meant that Barton lost someone he really loved (a soul for a soul) despite already having a family of his own.

Speaking of families, I was surprised by how sublime Paul Rudd's performance was when he met his now grown up daughter. Such a wonderful scene (in a film full of many such wonderful character moments).
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline fizz

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2019, 10:19:PM »
I noticed this on my first viewing but never brought this up.

Tony Stark's final words at the very end of Iron Man were "I am Iron Man". Of course, his absolute last words in Endgame were the same.

Genius I think.
Narrative is the poison of cinema...There's nothing more beautiful than elusiveness in cinema.

Offline kaytee

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2019, 10:38:PM »
The 1970 sequence which Iron Man asks Cap to trust him on is exactly why we had Civil War isn’t it? Same day his father got killed by Bucky, atleast that’s how I assume Iron Man knew what date to go to.
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Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2019, 11:46:PM »
Same day his father got killed by Bucky, atleast that’s how I assume Iron Man knew what date to go to.


Not the same day. Howard Stark survived until Tony Stark's late childhood (or early youth). And Bucky had killed both of Tony Stark's parents on the same day.
During the father-son meetup in this movie, Tony Stark isn't born yet. So this is at least a good 10-15 years before Bucky killed the Starks.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2019, 11:47:PM »
I noticed this on my first viewing but never brought this up.

Tony Stark's final words at the very end of Iron Man were "I am Iron Man". Of course, his absolute last words in Endgame were the same.

Genius I think.


Oh, this hit right in the feels! Iron Man's iconic line that was a big FU to superhero secret identities, but also working as a great counterpoint to Thanos' many "I am..." lines.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)

Offline PUP

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2019, 08:03:AM »
I too agree that I liked Infinity War more than End Game but man, this was epic and highly rewarding for anyone who has followed the series right from the first Iron Man. And despite the sheer plethora of cameos (from every MCU film I imagine), Downey Jr is THE standout. What a send-off too. But, I have problems with the time travel paradox in End Game. I think End Game breaks all the rules of time travel as we have seen in previous films of the genre. That’s a good thing for the story and future films in the MCU but it does leave questions that can only be answered by assumption or perhaps second or third viewing. I also find a lot of connection between Avengers: Age of Ultron and End Game.   

Some of the questions I have:

1.    As Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones before his capture and execution, why was he still wearing the empty Gantlet? 
2.   Tony Stark’s funeral was a great scene. Very moving and literally packed with an ensemble character list from previous MCU films. The wreath has his name on it. But what about Natasha? Did they have a separate funeral for her which is not shown? Why wasn’t her death given so much importance?
3.   The Space Stone. In the botched heist, Loki makes of with the Tesseract. So how do the Avengers return with all 6 Infinity Stones?
4.   When the Avengers time travel to the first Avengers film during the New York battle scene, they see their duplicates (rather their originals). So when Cap travels back to return the Infinity Stones but stays back to live out his life, what happens with the original Steve Rogers already present in the past?
5.   Why was it so difficult for Cap America, Iron Man and Thor to fight Thanos together, when the latter didn’t have the Infinity Stones in the final battle scene?
6.   The Gauntlet of Infinity Stones was passed from Hawkeye to Black Panther to Spiderman to Captain Marvel to Tony Stark. Why didn’t any of the other characters snap their fingers using the Gauntlet? Amongst these few, Captain Marvel would have been the most powerful to withstand the effects of the stones, whereas, Tony Stark is a mere human without any real superpowers. 
7.   After Thanos is killed (the first time) we flash forward 5 years to 2023. So when everyone is brought back, the original survivors are 5 years older but everyone who is brought back should be the age they were when at the end of Infinity War, which in the timeline is 2018. Yet Peter Parker goes back to school and his friends are all the same age (unless EVERY one in school died and was brought back too).
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Offline shariqq

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (Russo Brothers, 2019)
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2019, 11:59:AM »
I'll give these a shot:

1.    As Thanos destroyed the Infinity Stones before his capture and execution, why was he still wearing the empty Gantlet? 
It was mangled and burnt... perhaps fused to his arm? I don't think it matters much that he had it on.

2.   Tony Stark’s funeral was a great scene. Very moving and literally packed with an ensemble character list from previous MCU films. The wreath has his name on it. But what about Natasha? Did they have a separate funeral for her which is not shown? Why wasn’t her death given so much importance?
They had no body for the funeral. Plus, this was at Stark's home. She likely had a smaller ceremony, but this was definitely the grander affair. This is Iron Man, man.
Importance of Black Widow's and Vision's deaths was that little conversation Haweye and Scarlett Witch had ;)

3.   The Space Stone. In the botched heist, Loki makes of with the Tesseract. So how do the Avengers return with all 6 Infinity Stones?
Iron Man and Ant Man lost the Space Stone in their first attempt. Which is why Iron Man and Cap go to the 70s to the Army Base to get the stone/tesseract from even further in the past. They succeed, hence they now have all the stones.

4.   When the Avengers time travel to the first Avengers film during the New York battle scene, they see their duplicates (rather their originals). So when Cap travels back to return the Infinity Stones but stays back to live out his life, what happens with the original Steve Rogers already present in the past?
The movie implies that Cap travelled back to all 6 points to return the 6 stones. And that he stayed back with Peggy would imply he travelled back to the Army Base last and then stayed on with Peggy (we see as much in the final shot of the movie). He stayed on then, means there was no clash since Steve Rogers was in Ice at that time and only woke up in the 2000s by when this time-travelling Cap was old.

The bigger question is: How would have this time-travelling Cap stayed silent and hidden for all those years? Would his sense of justice and heroism not compel him to come out and help people? And hence he couldn't stay hidden!

But as all our discussions and questions show, the movie doesn't let the details of time travel get in the way of a good emotional/action story (though I think it should've been a little more careful).


5.   Why was it so difficult for Cap America, Iron Man and Thor to fight Thanos together, when the latter didn’t have the Infinity Stones in the final battle scene?

Thanos is a Titan. He is formidable in of himself. He beats the Hulk without using any Infinity Stone (the first fight in Infinity War, the stone in his gauntlet doesn't light up, showing he's strong by himself). Hence, Iron Man and Cap can't beat him. Plus, Thor isn't in his best shape, so his powers are diminished too. That said, all Superhero movies (and this is true in comics too) scale the powers of heroes and villains based on the fight. This is an acceptable anomoly of the genre.


6.   The Gauntlet of Infinity Stones was passed from Hawkeye to Black Panther to Spiderman to Captain Marvel to Tony Stark. Why didn’t any of the other characters snap their fingers using the Gauntlet? Amongst these few, Captain Marvel would have been the most powerful to withstand the effects of the stones, whereas, Tony Stark is a mere human without any real superpowers. 

None of them before Stark were trying to. Their plan was to get the Gauntlet to the Ice Cream truck to send back to the past. Thanos destroyed the truck just as CapMarv got to it. So none needed to snap it before anyway.

7.   After Thanos is killed (the first time) we flash forward 5 years to 2023. So when everyone is brought back, the original survivors are 5 years older but everyone who is brought back should be the age they were when at the end of Infinity War, which in the timeline is 2018. Yet Peter Parker goes back to school and his friends are all the same age (unless EVERY one in school died and was brought back too).

This is a very good point that was a minor logical tremor in my head when I watched it too. Someone actually did the math and came up with a probability of 1/64 that 6 of Spidey and his friends (featured in Homecoming) would be all snapped and hence come back in the same age. While not impossible, it seems highly improbable. Like most things with time travel in the movie, it's either convenient or un-explainable.
Do you know what the scariest thing is? To not know your place in this world, to not know why you're here. That's - that's just an awful feeling. -- Elijah Price,  Unbreakable (2000)